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Danatkins

Hey Etho, Drck. Thoughts?

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Well, they are jerking the trigger in primarily on a path that's straight back.  It's not the smoothness or pace of the trigger pull that matters, it's the pressing of the trigger side-to-side or up and down direction that affects POI.  If you jerked or slapped the trigger straight back, you're likely going to get decent results.  The screwdriver mostly eliminated the left-to-right aspect of applying pressure to the trigger.  

In this demonstration, they also eliminated what I consider one aspect of human physiology that causes poor pistol shooting.  It's sympathetic motion.  Essentially, when you pull or curl your trigger finger, the body's natural tendency causes the your right hand to rotate counter-clockwise.  Look what happens when you clench your fist.  It gets worse the more pressure you apply when closing your grip.  Which is why for grip, I'm about a firm shooting hand.  A super "strong" grip lends to what I noted above and that tension serves to slow down your trigger finger.  That said, I'm all for as much pressure on your support hand, but short of a death grip where your hand starts to shake.  

There's no magic to pistol shooting.  Yeah, it's a good grip and sight picture, but you have to have a good trigger press.

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I’ll have to watch it later. But reading his post, i can already see what they did essentially means nothing. 

Like he said as long as it’s straight back and no over travel force then it doesn’t matter how or what makes it happen. 

 

Ok, finally watched it. Yeah they proved nothing. The argument he's making is that if the grip is strong enough the pistol won't move while slapping the trigger. Which he isn't wrong, but that still doesn't make slapping the trigger right. It's compensating for a problem instead of addressing the problem. Also why strain yourself with death gripping the damn pistol. Just pull the fucking trigger right and it's a non-issue. 

Motherfuckers keep trying to re-invent the wheel and shit. Fucking snowflake millennials. 

Edited by Etho

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Right. They posted this in the run n gun group I'm part of and one guy was like well the difference between bullseye pulling the trigger and pulling it for speed are 2 different things. Not sure I agree with that. Hopefully going back to this other job I'll be able to get some trigger time in more. Like I said my main thing is lack of practice. 

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20 hours ago, Etho said:

I’ll have to watch it later. But reading his post, i can already see what they did essentially means nothing. 

Like he said as long as it’s straight back and no over travel force then it doesn’t matter how or what makes it happen. 

 

Ok, finally watched it. Yeah they proved nothing. The argument he's making is that if the grip is strong enough the pistol won't move while slapping the trigger. Which he isn't wrong, but that still doesn't make slapping the trigger right. It's compensating for a problem instead of addressing the problem. Also why strain yourself with death gripping the damn pistol. Just pull the fucking trigger right and it's a non-issue. 

Motherfuckers keep trying to re-invent the wheel and shit. Fucking snowflake millennials. 

It's one of those things where folks are trying to make a name for themselves.  I've seen videos of other quality instructors doing a similar demonstration, but the premise was different.  I'd have to look it up later.  

Like you said, it's not like they are wrong, but they aren't explaining anything new or particularly helpful that isn't already know.  Sadly, from the comments on their page, it seems like a ton of folks really ate it up and think these guys are the best ever.  

I don't mind the millenial thing that much, but what irritates me is the whole "I'm former .mil (or LE), so I'm an expert, so I know best, so listen to me" sort of approach and justification for being a "trainer".  Yes, I have a TON of respect for those who have served, but just because you are an expert shooter yourself, doesn't mean that you have the skills to be an instructor.  I know many folks who can do, but can't teach.  You see that ALL the time in golf.  They know how to play really well and diagnose and fix their own swing, but are shitty at doing that for others and many times end up offering advice that makes things worse.  

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5 hours ago, Danatkins said:

Right. They posted this in the run n gun group I'm part of and one guy was like well the difference between bullseye pulling the trigger and pulling it for speed are 2 different things. Not sure I agree with that. Hopefully going back to this other job I'll be able to get some trigger time in more. Like I said my main thing is lack of practice. 

That's a different issue.  The bullseye trigger pull vs competition/speed shooting is something that I've discussed with a number of folks in the past couple of years.  

Came up when I saw this video of a CZ Pro shooter and looked like he was slapping the trigger, but that was under slow motion while he was shooting at a very high pace.  The key there was he already has a refined (straight back)trigger pull while doing that, but in that specific instance he's focused on speed.  

Bullseye trigger shooting tends to lead to pinning the trigger to the rear.  You'll often hear the bang, then click of the trigger reset.  In competition or higher paced shooting, you should be able to get the trigger reset point by the time the slide is forward and that is within the "bang" period of the cycle.  That was something that I was working on when I was training a lot a few months ago.  Strangely, the trigger pinning is a habit that is quite hard to break.  

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11 minutes ago, Drck said:

That's a different issue.  The bullseye trigger pull vs competition/speed shooting is something that I've discussed with a number of folks in the past couple of years.  

Came up when I saw this video of a CZ Pro shooter and looked like he was slapping the trigger, but that was under slow motion while he was shooting at a very high pace.  The key there was he already has a refined (straight back)trigger pull while doing that, but in that specific instance he's focused on speed.  

Bullseye trigger shooting tends to lead to pinning the trigger to the rear.  You'll often hear the bang, then click of the trigger reset.  In competition or higher paced shooting, you should be able to get the trigger reset point by the time the slide is forward and that is within the "bang" period of the cycle.  That was something that I was working on when I was training a lot a few months ago.  Strangely, the trigger pinning is a habit that is quite hard to break.  

Yeah I've been watching a lot of videos from Sage Dynamics and the guys name escapes me but he was talking about firing then coming off the trigger to where you know it will reset. Basically letting the trigger release and hit your finger then you fire again

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There’s a certain group of folks who advocate not shooting from reset. Just come off and don’t worry about reset.

Much like these guys, they aren’t wrong. But whether you come off or shoot from reset is moot as long as you have a good trigger pull. So again, they’re taking an idea that isn’t new. It isn’t an idea at all. 

Just people regurgitate shit to sound special. I don’t shoot from reset at speed, I don’t come off the trigger either. I sweep that bitch and my shots are, generally, where I aim. Because I’ve shot from reset for tens of thousand of trigger pulls of live rounds and dry fire and thus my trigger pull is, for the most part, straight. 

Edited by Etho

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1 hour ago, Danatkins said:

Yeah I've been watching a lot of videos from Sage Dynamics and the guys name escapes me but he was talking about firing then coming off the trigger to where you know it will reset. Basically letting the trigger release and hit your finger then you fire again

I watched most of the video I think you were referring to. Think the title is “Handgun Trigger Control”. That’s mostly what I was referring to. In that demo in shooting from reset, you can hear the click of the reset in between the bang. 

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24 minutes ago, Etho said:

There’s a certain group of folks who advocate not shooting from reset. Just come off and don’t worry about reset.

Much like these guys, they aren’t wrong. But whether you come off or shoot from reset is moot as long as you have a good trigger pull. So again, they’re taking an idea that isn’t new. It isn’t an idea at all. 

Just people regurgitate shit to sound special. I don’t shoot from reset at speed, I don’t come off the trigger either. I sweep that bitch and my shots are, generally, where I aim. Because I’ve shot from reset for tens of thousand of trigger pulls of live rounds and dry fire.

With the NRA obstruction of follow through, you see the pinning of the trigger. Even for me, I notice that it creeps in as a bad habit now and then. 

When shooting for more speed, i do try to work on having the trigger ready to fire upon the sights settling. Whether my finger comes off the trigger or not, I’m not sure. I’d have to watch a video to confirm. But not something I’m really that concerned about. 

I hear you on the regurgitation part. See that all the time on a local forum where the younger knowit alls come in and spout what they think is the latest and greatest, but like Dan, many times things are taken out of context, conveyed incorrectly, etc. 

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5 hours ago, Drck said:

With the NRA obstruction of follow through, you see the pinning of the trigger. Even for me, I notice that it creeps in as a bad habit now and then. 

When shooting for more speed, i do try to work on having the trigger ready to fire upon the sights settling. Whether my finger comes off the trigger or not, I’m not sure. I’d have to watch a video to confirm. But not something I’m really that concerned about. 

I hear you on the regurgitation part. See that all the time on a local forum where the younger knowit alls come in and spout what they think is the latest and greatest, but like Dan, many times things are taken out of context, conveyed incorrectly, etc. 

I imagine so. People mix elements of disciplines which don’t mix. They expect and have unrealistic goals. Combat and target are so different and have different requirements. 

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